Topic: Coach orders pitcher to hit batter


guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 10:55 PM
  From: Coach K
Date: 24-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: dkls4@mindspring.com

During a recent 14yr old game our coach ordered our pitcher to hit a batter. The coach was upset because he was about to loose by the 10 run rule.
Has anyone seen any leagal action due to this kind of thing?



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 10:56 PM
  From: Jude
Date: 15-Aug-01

E-Mail Address: heyjude71963@aol.com

I agree with many of you that anytime a coach orders a pitcher to intentionally hit a batter it is wrong. No excuses, it is just wrong. If it becomes obvious the opposition is intentionally hitting your batters, protest the game and leave if necessary. No win or lesson taught to another player is worth the possible serious injury to a child.

One person suggested throwing at the ribs as opposed to the head. Well, there are cases of punctured lungs from having ribs broken by a ball. And, the old "hit him in the leg" doesn't fare any better. Several years ago, a player at a multi-field park during one of my son's games was hit in the knee and it shattered his knee.

He was taken out by ambulance.
If your pitchers do not have the control to pitch inside, don't let them do it! Taking matters into your own hands may not be the right answer, but I agree with those who said that if their kid was hit by a pitch and it was ordered by the coach, look out. I may be a mom and not a dad, but somebody hold me back, because that coach is going to need protection.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 10:57 PM
  From: Coach K
Date: 15-Aug-01

E-Mail Address: dkls4@mindspring.com

Folks I Think I need to wade back in here a bit.
The disscussion has moved away from the question - Which is fine but if possible I would like to address it again.

Since my first post I have done soma additional research, and thought you all might want to hear about it.

I have spoken with My states Athletic Assocication, A US attorny, and the local Police. All are in agreement that if a coach orders a pitcher to hit a batter then it is assult. No ifs, no buts, no well their kid slid with cleats up, or said some thing about some ones mother, Assult end of story. Further more according to our States Athletic Association it is grounds for the coach to be removed, if he is a state employee.
One final note, The US Attorney is a father of athletic children, his comment to me was - "In this day when we have parents literally killing each other at youth events, how could any sane person condone or even consider ordering a child to attack another? You bet I would bring charges against that coach, just as fast as I could."

Though y'all might be interested.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 10:58 PM
  From: coach Luciano
Date: 04-Aug-01

E-Mail Address: spacecadet54@aol.com

Well, this is getting heated up. I have 1 more response to this debate if I may, I agree that there are things that seperate great pitchers from good pitchers, and it might not only be backing them off the plate. Some of you I'm sure remember a fella named Don Drysdale, well his philosophy of pitching was to establish the outside corner never getting the ball inside to pull, just the opposite of Pedro and Roger, Greg Maddox keeps you off balance with changing speed. These are just a few examples of ways to becoming a great pitcher, not just scaring the hell out of a kid who's 12. My point is to protect the kids from adults who only teach their kids to pitch inside when they don't have a kid with the talent to do so. As far as purpose pitching, it has always been a part of baseball, and always will be so get used to it or pick up some golf clubs. When the compition gets better, and our kids get older it unfortunately becomes a part of the game, just like hockey and football so get used to it. Before a kids go to 60'6", there should be a limit of how many times he can hit a batter before he is ejected.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 10:59 PM
  From: mcbain
Date: 04-Aug-01

E-Mail Address: eyeofthetiger20@hotmail.com

Richard: Ridiculas??? Tell it to Pedro. Oh and by the way You dont have to be Pedro to hit a guy. Just because Pedro does it dont make it right but he does do it and he IS the best. You say that you should never hit a guy intensionally well i want to know what kind of a pitcher you were or are??

Theres somthing about alot of pitchers that make them different from the rest, its not their stuff or their know how of the game, its their killer instinct. Alot of people have lost respect for Clemens after the Piazza incidents ( i am one of them) but perhaps that helps us get into the mind set of the man with the most Cy Youngs in the history of the game.

Not once did i say in my post that a coach should tell a pitcher to throw at a hitter because he shouldnt. But i believe that some pitchers will just do it on their own because they feel its right. You say its immauture to throw at a hitter but how mature is it to come into second with your spikes up??

With childern nobody wants to see kids out there plunking hitters every chance they get and im not saying they should. But i am saying that maybe the one little fella out there who's gonna really be somthin will be the one who hits a few hitters.

And the other thing about hitting people intentionally is that its a rare thing to do. Whats not so rare is throwing the ball in real tight and not caring if it hits him. You have to own the inside part of the plate. Watch (uh oh heres Pedro again)

Martinez pitch he comes in all the time gettin the hitter to stop lungin out there at the outside corner. Do you think hell shed a tear if it hits him?? no way.You say that you should never hit anyone and to teach youngsters the same thing and i in part agree, you should teach youngsters never to hit somebody on purpose. But like I say there will always be that guy who is **** well gonna make sure that his team is safe out there wether his coach or anyone else tells him different. And those guys are the Pedros of this world.


Oh and P.S. NOTHING warrents a pitch to the head. People live through cracked ribs they sometimes dont a fastball to the head.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 10:59 PM
  From: Richard
Date: 04-Aug-01

E-Mail Address: mrddcount1@aol.com

McBAin - That is ridiculous! How many Pedro Martinez pitchers do you have on your team? Oh, and just because Pedro Martinez does it that makes it ok?..If you get cussed at are you gonna go puch the other guy out too? Actually, I better be careful you might send the dogs after me too. Give me a break. We are talking about intentionally hitting people with a baseball - It absolutely is wrong. If people do it - they are wrong! Period. This whole attitude of "I ain't gonna let anybody get away with that" is grade school bully stuff. What kind of lessons are you teaching when you act so immaturely? How about teaching kids to respect themselves and respect others. Be better than someone who plays outside the rules. Have character. Conduct yourself well - Do your best...play with everything you have? So tell me this...what is it that will make you pitch at their heads? We already know what deserves rib shots. After all who cares if a kid breaks a rib or two right? This is ridiculous thinking. I can't even believe that I am hearing this...Please, Please tell me you are NOT a coach.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:00 PM
  From: mcbain
Date: 03-Aug-01

E-Mail Address: eyeofthetiger20@hotmail.com

I think it works like this: there is nothing wrong with throwing at a hitter intenionaly if done with due casue and if done right.

Pedro Martinez is always way up there in hit batsmen and hes the best pitcher in the game. If your goning to throw at a hitter then you throw at the ribbs and never at the head. You dont make a habit out of it and you make **** sure that you think it nessesary. Ive hit a few hitters over the years, sometimes just pitching inside, sometimes the ball just got a away and sometimes i did it on purpose.

Heres a few examples of what i feel is a good reason to hit a batter: The other day a firstbase coach told my firstbaseman that if he slapped the tag down that hard again hed get hit. Fortuneatly it never happend but had he been hit, or even thrown at and missed i would have promptly stuck one in the ribbs of the first batter i saw.

If one of my players got spiked or beaned id hit the guy who did it.
If i caught the baserunner on second relaying signs id have a meeting with my catcher and explain that hes to call an outside curve and ill reall throw an inside fastball. Again right in the ribbs. There are probably a few other occasions where a good fastball to the ribbs would be appropriate but theres no need to go on.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:01 PM
  From: coach Luciano
Date: 01-Aug-01

E-Mail Address: spacecadet54@aol.com

Richard, this might be the best response to this whole conversation. Im embarressed about my comments, but they are honest. I was in a position that I wished I wasn't and regret my actions. My point was I should not have even been presented with doing something that could have changed my life, as well as that of a 12 year old. If anyone has any idea, on what direction to go change the rules or at least make organizations aware of them, I would appreciate your comments.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:02 PM
  From: Richard
Date: 01-Aug-01

E-Mail Address: MRDDCount1@aol.com

Well coach, I think you just found the best answer for everyone. You said it in your last message. Lobby to get the rule changed. I think that would be a lot more effective than having your kids beaning batters. If you care as much about the kids as you say you do then I am sure you won't mind putting forth the time and effort that it will take to change the rule. You are absolutely right in that there should be a limit on the # of hit batters. Get it done. You said you feel bad having your pitcher hit batters (and you should)...this is something that would be a great solution and it is something that you could be proud of. Not only that but you would be protecting all of the kids, and not just the ones on YOUR team. Go for it! I bet a lot of people would be behind you. In the meantime..teach your kids the best way to take a shot at the plate and teach them how to keep their composure even when it seems soo hard to. Pitchers need to learn control - so do kids - and us parents and coaches



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:03 PM
  From: coach luciano
Date: 30-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: spacecadet54@aol.com

Mike, we are supposed to be passive and not interfer with our kids being thrown at. So as a parent of the kid being thrown at, we need to either cry foul or take him off the field.

You taking matters into your own hands is wrong, right. This is how I felt, no control over what was happening, and an umpire and opposing coach with no regard for the safety of my kids. I hope you have been reading all of my comments before you start bashing me, thinking that this is something i was happy about. Your about to run out of the stands and take matters into your own hands.

Youth baseball should have a limit on hits batsmen and its time someone did something about it. Kids at this age do not have the control to pitch inside without running a risk, coaches encourage it and think its good baseball, I don't. My pitchers have hit 4 batters in 16 games this summer and we are in first place. My kids were hit 4 times in 3 innings by the second place team. I teach changing speed not moving a 12 year old away fom the plate and running the risk of injury.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:04 PM
  From: Mike
Date: 30-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: MWebb77873@AOL.com

Coach Luciano, what is the next step teaching our 12 year olds to charge the mound? Even the major leagues realize the danger in the bean ball and are taking steps to discourage its use. I don't care if you are throwing at the legs or the head it is not something I like to see encouraged. I have a 12 year old who crowds the plate and refuses to be intimidated by anybody and in the AAU travel league he gets brushed back often but if I thought he or any kid was being intentionaly thrown at I am afraid they would have to drag me away from the ball park because that is the one situation where I wouldn't go quietly.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:05 PM
  From: coach Luciano
Date: 30-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: spacecadet54@aol.com

Sally, please let me add this. Your credability is more important to me then that of any coach, its one as a parent and its what I respect most. Sometimes as a coach a decision is made, and lots of them are 2nd guessed, sometimes as adult coaches we try and find a way to teach kids how to win, but others will take it a bit further then we expect. I'm more interested that they are able to remember their expierences and talk about them for years to come. Now before I go any further realize 9 of the 15 man roster are kids I have been coaching for 6 years, and if the answer is packing your equipment up, and leaving the field to protect kids when some psycho coach who thinks its acceptable to hit my boys and girls in an attempt to intimidate after they have worked so hard, then so be it. That is a lot easier to say then do, but if anything gained from our opionions in this forum, maybe it might be in everyones best interest to walk away from danger and give up when you can't control the playing conditions. I thank you and hope everyone who has paid attention to this conversation, understands that my decision was to hit a kid in the leg, who had just thrown twice at my pitcher, instead of walking him. Some where along the line, a hard throwing 12 year old, thinks not pitching to someone means hitting him, and I was just trying to teach him its not right, without walking off the field to protect my kids. Again I hope your opinion of me is not someone who need win at all costs, but as a parent protecting his own.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:06 PM
  From: sally
Date: 29-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: shieldss@musc.edu

Coach Luciano No, I am obviously not a coach and maybe then have no credibility with you. I would never dream of responding to a question or comment requiring great knowledge of baseball. Your comments do not require that knowledge. I have a 16 and 12 year old on competitive travel teams.

My 12 year old is a starting pitcher on a team that just won the state championship and also throws hard. My husband and I are at practices and games and my 16 year old also plays for his high school baseball team. My kids both know it is a lame excuse to answer bad behavior with bad behavior.

If they do that with the comment that they are teaching the other team or person something, they know it will be a long, tense car ride home. I trust my children's coaches to not only teach them baseball but also to teach them to be responsible for their behavior. Somewhere out there is a 12 year old that you told to hit a batter.

I believe, whether you wish to believe or not, that you owe him an apology because the emotions of the game got away from you. Yes, I know about injury, I have visited the ER on many an occasion because of sports. Anyone who plays accepts some risk and I hope my children's coaches teach them how to reduce those risks. I may not have the answer for what you should have done, I know what you did was wrong.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:06 PM
  From: Bill
Date: 29-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: bjconnor@msn.com

What's wrong with a pitch out to give the batter the base? I take it the guy at the plate was a good hitter, so wouldn't a pitch out accomplish the same thing, if you were about to lose by the 10 run rule? If another team is intentionally hitting your batters, you can always swallow your ego, and if you care about the possibility of the kids getting SERIOUSLY injured, pack you bags and go home. It will be a hollow victory for the other team, you and they will always know it. Your kids will appreciate your concern for them, as well as the parents. Take care of the kids well being. That's always paramount.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:08 PM
  From: coach Luciano
Date: 29-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: Spacecadet54@aol.com

Coach Sally, your response of teaching a kid how to get out of the way of a baseball is the politically correct thing to say, good for you. When you discover that drill, you can teach it to Kirby Puckett, and Mike Piazza and its to bad we couldnt tell Tony Conigliaro.

Now your thinking well those were not intentional, and they are major league pitchers throwing, but thats where your wrong. From 46 feet away, a hard throwing 12 year old, and equate that with the time of day (around 7:30), no one stopping it from continuing and your going to tell me about working on something in my next practice is just plain dumb (sorry).

A baseball thrown to close to the head, sometimes you freeze and it can change your life forever. Just for the record, the coaches who have responded to me directly to my e-mail address are almost all in agreement, but a bit concerned about voiceing their opionion on the site.

This is not a situation where kids are dropped of at the ball field, while there parents go for a tennis lesson, its a competitive travel team entering in Southern Westchester N.Y, tournaments and summer leaues.

They are good and throw hard. I made it clear I wasn't happy about it, but when you can't get respect from the other coach you take things into your own hands, with-in reason. In the leg, not the ear as they did when i was young



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:09 PM
  From: Sally
Date: 28-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: shieldss@musc.edu

Coach Luciano. You are trying to find excuses for doing the wrong thing. We cannot control what is done in professional leagues by players who are paid for doing a job. You can control what happens on your team. Pitching inside is part of the game-coach your kids on avoiding being hit.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:10 PM
  From: coach Luciano
Date: 27-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: spacecadet54@aol.com

Coach when your kids are getting thrown at, on purpose and no one is doing a thing to halt it, what are you saying to do? We are talking about a kid without the control experimenting on how to pitch inside against the kids you love.

Combine that with hitting the same guy because they don't want to pitch to him. I knew this wouldn't be recieved real well by the coaches, but its a part of the game that been around for years. If the other pitcher thinks its ok to hit people instead of pitching, someone has to teach them its not. Sorry for being so blunt.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:11 PM
  From: Richard
Date: 27-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: MRDDCount1@aol.com

The idea that because you are wronged during a game makes it easy to want to retaliate. Pitching a pitch to intentionally hit a batter to intimidate him, get revenge for someone else, or just to plain hurt him is always wrong.

Teach the kids baseball. If a batter is hanging over the plate and gets hit...too bad for the batter. If you want a pitcher to pitch inside to back someone off the plate..fine. To tell a pitcher to purposely hit someone with the ball is assault..whether you are playing a game or not.

Show me one place in the rules where it says a pitchers job is to hit the batter with a ball and I will change my mind. Please re-consider your thoughts on this



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:14 PM
  From: coach Luciano
Date: 27-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: spacecadet54@aol.com

Well here goes nothing, i coach a 12 yr old travel team. a few days ago we were playing for 1st place in my division. My lead off batter gets hit with a high inside fast ball (that he swung at), ball breaks his nose and he goes to the hospital covered in blood, strike 1.

My starting pitcher was hit twice, and both time the catcher gave a signal. Two other batters were hit hard on inside pitches, the other coach did nothing about removing the kid, and the ump was no help. The other team was chanting while my guys were pitching and the ump gave me no time to warm up my pitcher after an injury to my 2nd pitcher of the game, he now has a strained rotator cuff and is lost for the playoffs.

Needless to say, it was the worst expierence I've ever had in 15 years of coaching youth baseball. I told my last pitcher to hit their pitcher in the leg, and I wasn't happy about doing it,"fortunatly he missed", we lost but I'm still struggling with if I did the right thing, by protecting my kids from being pitched inside.

Sorry guys, but these things happen in baseball, and if Mike Piazza goes out and kicks Roger Clemens ass, the Mets could have won the World Series. Sometimes a purpose pitch is part of the game but there has to be a reason, and a good one.

Nobody wants a kid to get hurt, especially when its yours. They give warnings and have adjusted the pitching rules of major league baseball, why not for little leaguers.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:15 PM
  From: Richard
Date: 27-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: MRDDCount1@aol.com

I think I will tell my son tonight that if his coach ever tells him to do the same thing. Immediately look his coach in the eye, give him the ball...say "you do it" and then walk off the field.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:16 PM
  From: taxfact
Date: 27-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: taxfact@aol.com

baseball coaches aren't always the brightest group. It is wrong but i am not surprised



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:17 PM
  From: eric
Date: 26-Jul-01
E-Mail Address: spydr39@hotmail.com

this guy (I dont even want to call him a coach) is a pretty sore loser. I hope the pitcher had some common sense and didnt hit the batter.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:18 PM
  From: BeenthereIL
Date: 25-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: rynluvsjes@aol.com

The coach is an idiot.
If it was my son that he "ordered" his pitcher to throw at, I'd punch him (the coach) in the nose.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:19 PM
  From: hm
Date: 24-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: hm@hm.com

that guy should not be coaching kids.



guest    -- 09-22-2001 @ 11:20 PM
  From: Mike
Date: 24-Jul-01

E-Mail Address: MWebb77873@AOL.com

No but if I would get my son off of that team right away. Or better yet demand the coaches resignation.



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