| CoachBill | -- 09-26-2005 @ 1:23 PM |
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I teach a cross over step for the first step in stealing 2B. One of my players had a lesson the other day and came out showing the other players how his instructor had him jab stepping with his right foot first then crossing with his left. Is this one of those things where there isn't really a right and wrong way to do things?
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| stylemismatch | -- 09-26-2005 @ 6:40 PM |
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I always thought just the crossover step was fastest, but after trying it both ways the 'jab' step feels faster. (Of course these 47 year old knees aren't the quickest any more either). Just a thought - do an experiment and let some of your players be the guinea pigs. Have them run a set distance, each player alternating between the two methods, with a short rest between runs. Do three times each, and take the average for each player. That'll give at least a sampling of real data instead of merely opinions.
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| Bob_Byrd | -- 09-27-2005 @ 9:17 AM |
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There is (was) a college coach in a small school in Louisiana that in order to compete improved the running game of his team. He found that everyone has a dominant leg and to utilize that information he had two different first steps in stealing second base. To find the dominant leg in each player have him stand on the edge of first base with both legs. Lift one off the ground and leap out as far as he can with the other. Then reverse legs. One leg will be f*rther out than the other. If I remember correctly the right leg dominant player used the jab step and the left leg dominant player used the crossover. You will see both styles used in the major leagues. Bob Byrd
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| Memphis | -- 09-28-2005 @ 11:34 AM |
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Bob, I'm having a hard time visualizing this "drill" to determine the dominant leg. One leg is in the air and you jump with the other? Huh? Could you provide a little more detail? I always figured whichever leg you would prefer to kick a ball with is your dominant leg. But, perhaps that isn't true with regards to running. David Emerling Memphis, TN David Emerling Memphis, TN
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| Bob_Byrd | -- 09-29-2005 @ 7:49 AM |
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Lift your right leg and leap out as far as you can with your left. Land on your left leg only, keeping the right leg off the ground. Then repeat by lifting the left leg. There will be a slight difference. Use the edge of the base as a starting point. This coach’s study showed there are quite a few right handed players that are left leg dominant. Bob Byrd
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| stylemismatch | -- 09-29-2005 @ 10:34 AM |
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The 'dominant leg' theory sounds interesting. Bob, do you have any numbers as far as how much faster the players were when they led with their dominant leg. Also, I'll bet that in most all cases the dominant leg also happens to be the preferred kicking leg. I know in my case, when I played soccer, there was a huge difference in my shot with my left vs. right foot. And in attempting the test that Bob describes, my right leg comes out on top.
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| JimW. | -- 09-29-2005 @ 10:51 AM |
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Very interesting post. I tried this and as it turns out, I'm left leg dominant and I kick with my right leg. I am ambidextrous in many sports though. JimW.
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| CoachBill | -- 09-29-2005 @ 11:31 AM |
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One thing I have learned by coaching youth football is that young players have little or no explosiveness. Their leg muscles are just not devolped enough at the pre high school age. We have drills to improve this that will probobly cross over to baseball. Being explosive those first two or three steps is probobly more important than with foot you step with first. This is also where form running before each practice can pay off. We do it.
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| stylemismatch | -- 09-29-2005 @ 1:33 PM |
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CoachBill, could you describe your form-running drills? thanks
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| CoachBill | -- 09-29-2005 @ 3:04 PM |
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We'va always done the form running recommended here such as high knees, butt kickers, kareoka, sizzor claps, backward running. In foot ball we add frog hops, 10 yard sprints, carrying a player piggy back, bounding with giant steps, etc.
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| spw1 | -- 09-29-2005 @ 9:03 PM |
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When I first read the post, I googled for 'sprint training tips', on the theory that whats good for a sprinter might be good for acceleration on the bases. The first this each site said, was 'determine your dominant leg by performing the following drill blah, blah, blah...'. I've always taught the crossover , its good to know it depends on the individual... ------------------------- "Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious." --------------------- Walt Whitman This message was edited by spw1 on 9-29-05 @ 9:04 PM
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| WillHaskell | -- 10-12-2005 @ 1:01 PM |
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I risk offending most of the coaches that have offered information on this topic but your teaching of a cross-over step is making your base-runners significantly slower. Let's not forget that the runner will have cleats on. A cross-over step requires that the lead leg pivot in the ground. The pivot causes friction with the ground making that athlete slower. The twisting action of the knee with cleats stuck in the ground could potentially lead to a severe injury. In addition to creating friction with the ground the upper torso has to rotate quickly in order to align the shoulders with second base. I've heard many coaches teach runners to "punch the air". When athletes do this the torso is accelerated along a transverse plane only for the body to have to decelerate itself once the shoulders are in position. The cross-over step is not a powerful position. Instead of using the larger and more explosive musculature of the glutes and hamstrings, the body is using adduction muscles that are significantly smaller and weaker. We want our athletes to accelerate quickly but we have just put them into the slowest position possible. A true base stealing step will be what's call a directional step performed by the inside leg (leg closest to the bag). The leg will generate momentum towards second base while the lead knee is opened towards second base and driven upwards with a dorsiflexed toe. This is the most powerful position for a good leg drive and we haven't created friction with the ground. This method is significantly faster and offers little likelihood of injury. Will Haskell Athletic Development Specialist will@tsanorthwest.com
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| OBAkid | -- 10-12-2005 @ 6:46 PM |
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I'll also risk offending, regarding when it was posted "...teaching of a cross-over step is making your base-runners significantly slower.". I have taped and replayed major league 3rd, SS, and 2b infielders execute lateral moves to balls for at a few years now and can remember none who didn't use a "crossover" as their first move to the ball. My suggestion is to watch the replays on the present MLB championship series games. OBA Kid This message was edited by OBAkid on 10-12-05 @ 6:49 PM
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| coachjim | -- 10-12-2005 @ 8:06 PM |
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WillHaskell, I am sorry, as written your post is just silly. I hope it was intended as some kind of humor. quote: The "friction" between your pivot foot and the ground makes us FASTER. Ever try to run on ice where there is little friction between your feet and the ground? I haven't used the term "punching the air." But I am sure it is similar to what I have seen before. The point is to use the momentum of your upper body to quickly get your body squared to second base. Not only that but your right foot should be able to pivot in the ground and point toward 2nd without picking it up. Every fast runner uses their arms. This is just an exaggerated arm pump to get square before taking the cross-over step. --jim This message was edited by coachjim on 10-12-05 @ 8:07 PM
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| WillHaskell | -- 10-12-2005 @ 8:35 PM |
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The difference between lateral movement and stealing a base are considerably different. Moving laterally, the player will tend to keep his shoulders square to the ball so they can effectively make the play. What you are talking about has no validity in actually stealing a base. Secondly, how does friction make us faster? My college physics professor would spin in his grave if he saw this. I typically don't run on ice...I skate on it. Friction does not make us faster, it simply provide a means in which we can apply force. Remember Robin Ventura and Moises Alou? Both received severe knee injuries because of cleats getting stuck in the ground with a knee that was rotating. I'd like to hear your rationale behind why this is quicker and more biomechanically sound than the technique I'm describing. Maybe I'm just not reading it correctly but neither of your arguments make sense and I'd like further clarification. Will Haskell Athletic Development Specialist will@tsanorthwest.com
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| coachjim | -- 10-12-2005 @ 8:58 PM |
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Your physics professor would say that every force has an equal and opposite force working against it. In this case, your leg creates a force pushing on the ground toward 1st base. The equal and opposite force pushing back is the friction between your foot and the ground. And it is the friction in fact which is the force pushing your body toward 2nd. Without that friction pushing back, your foot would slip, your leg would move toward 1st, and you would fall on your face. When I said "FASTER" I meant that a base stealer is faster with friction (like on a baseball field) than without friction (like on an ice rink). I think your technique is a fancy way of describing a jab step. There is nothing wrong with it. But it is not "significantly faster" than a cross-over. --jim This message was edited by coachjim on 10-12-05 @ 9:04 PM
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| WillHaskell | -- 10-12-2005 @ 10:25 PM |
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Thank you for taking the time to offer up more discussion. I agree with you 100% about the equal and opposite reaction concept. All of our movement capabilities are based on that very principle. You're also right about frictions role in force application. My point is geared toward the pivoting of the foot in that scenario. I can pivot on one foot much faster if that foot were on ice because of the lack of friction. Cleats in the dirt creates more friction, thus making it slower. It's not really a fancy way of describing a jab step. I've seen the jab step taught and biomechanically it is missing out of the capabilities of the more explosive musculature in the posterior kinetic chain (soleus, gastronemius, hamstrings, glutes.) I'm not taking credit at all for this technique. My mentor Lee Taft (www.sportsspeedetc.com) is highly regarded as one of the top speed coaches in the world. He was the one who developed the technique and has taught that technique to many collegiate and professional coaches and their athletes. I'm not a big research guy, but a colleague of ours has actually used Dartfish technology (motion and speed analysis software) to break down the different base stealing techniques. The method I described was a few tenths of a second faster than other techniques. Of course that's not a huge deal but if you take into consideration a ball leaving the pitchers hand in .3 seconds and a good catcher that can deliver the ball in 1.7-2.0 seconds, those tenths of a second could make a huge difference. I was a cross-over guy before Lee Taft taught me this technique when I was playing college baseball. I teach cross-over steps to all my athletes because it is faster than a lateral shuffle and provides better mobility than if the player were to tries to change directions out of a sprint. From a base-stealing perspective, this is a more explosive and biomechanically advantageous position and it is now being taught at the Major League level. As you know, speed in baseball kills. Lesser skilled baseball players can sometimes be more successful than their highly skilled counterparts based on speed and athleticism. Coaches are always looking for ways to make their players better athletes. Recently we presented a seminar with Don Hooton (www.taylorhooton.org) about the dangers of steroid abuse. A major reason steroid abuse is happening among youth athletes (as early as age 10) is because of the speed and strength edge athletes need to be successful. If athletes move correctly and are strength trained properly they won't need ergogenic aids. I apologize if I came off a little abrasive but I lost a professional baseball career due to poor coaching that eventually led to a shoulder injury. For example, I was a pitcher that was constantly told by my coaches that running long distance was a good way to remove lactic acid from my shoulder after an appearance. After receiving my education and analyzing what has been a practice of most pitching coaches for decades, I realized what a fallacy that concept was. Running after a start actually increases lactic acid concentrations in muscle tissue and the blood stream. Sorry but I just realized how long this post is. Thanks for the time and I appreciate the input. Will Haskell Athletic Development Specialist will@tsanorthwest.com
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| stylemismatch | -- 10-12-2005 @ 11:24 PM |
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This has been an interesting discussion from the start. Will, can you post a link to some photos (or better yet video) of the move you are describing? I think that would go a long way towards understanding.
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| Bob_Byrd | -- 10-13-2005 @ 7:13 AM |
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Willo, what is a Athletic Development Specialist? Bob Byrd
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| WillHaskell | -- 10-13-2005 @ 7:46 AM |
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Good question. I train high school, collegiate and professional athletes. I also work with kids that have physical and mental disabilities. From a baseball standpoint, a cap will be placed on every baseball player based on athleticism. The guys we see in the big leagues, with some exceptions, aren't just the best players but they are also the best athletes. Using scientifically researched techniques, we develop multi-planar movement skills, acceleration, strength, flexibility, etc. Unfortunately athletes go to gym and find a certified personal trainer to help them work out. Athletes get tossed on machines and get put through body-building style regiments that is detrimental to performance. Currently in the U.S., over 300 personal trainer certifications exist. The difference between what I do and what personal trainers do differs significantly but more importantly, we only work with athletes. If a baseball player tears an ACL you wouldn't take him to a cardiologist. You would take him to an orthopedist that specializes in athletic care for treatment. Athletes come to us because this is our specialty. I'll try and get some photos to post of the base stealing technique so then everyone can get a better representation of what I'm talking about. Thanks guys. I'll do my best to answer any strength and movement questions you might have. Will Haskell Athletic Development Specialist will@tsanorthwest.com
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| CoachBill | -- 10-13-2005 @ 12:46 PM |
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Will, If you take an open up or jab step with your lead foot don't you then have to pivot your left foot which is also in a shoe with cleats? Once you lift the lead foot aren't you putting all of your weight on the left foot too? That said I'm not saying I am convinced of either way being faster...but I hope to be so I can teach better.
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| WillHaskell | -- 10-13-2005 @ 1:02 PM |
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The left foot doesn't pivot. The left foot is a directional step that is applying force so the lead leg can clear and drive through. The directional step provides the initial force towards second base while the lead leg is positioned in a biomechanically faster and more power position to create force. Only in the condition in which the runner is in a poor athletic stance to begin with, will the foot be forced to rotate in the ground. A proper athletic stance is another 4 pages of discussion because we have developed a way to make that better also and most coaches still have not adopted it. We give presentations about these concepts all across the country. Most recently, a former major leaguer (15 years in the pros) commented on how much more effective this technique was than the one he had learned while playing. Will Haskell Athletic Development Specialist will@tsanorthwest.com
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| OBAkid | -- 11-24-2005 @ 5:15 PM |
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Jim, on Oct 12t you responded,- "The difference between lateral movement and stealing a base are considerably different. Moving laterally, the player will tend to keep his shoulders square to the ball so they can effectively make the play. What you are talking about has no validity in actually stealing a base.". Please clarify what you mean by "square to the ball". I interpret you mean having shoulders 90 degrees to the path of the ball. If so, aren't you referring to the angle the "shuffle" step sets up in laterally moving to a ball. In a crossover to the ball the key is to create the correct angle of movement to balls hit f*rther than the shuffle provides. This being so the shoulders will take variable angles to the flight of the ball, depending to the ball's flight and its velocity. This may prompt the question: For what situation (angle to the ball) is the lead leg the preferred 1st step to the ball. As one example: For a ball hit immediately over, behind and slightly to the fielder's left, the lead (near)leg would likely be dropped back first. Are you suggesting the the near leg be used exclusively for all routes to the ball as well as base?. OBA Kid
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