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Discussion Topic: Curve or Slider ?
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Tyrone |
06-18-2005 @ 10:48 AM
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My son is 14U and pitches only occasionally for his travel team, because he has yet to develop an effective offspeed pitch and had been very wild early in the year. He has been working on a curve in his bullpens and threw it for the first time Thursday.
My question for the board is this: Is he throwing a slider instead of a curve ball? (I’m a dad trying to protect his arm.) His grip starts with a fastball grip, then he moves his index finger along a seam and grips the right side of the ball. He then turns his wrist slightly (fingers move from 12oclock on the ball to about 2 o’clock), so the effect is as if he is a kid holding a snow cone. From this position he releases the pitch with fastball mechanics (no twisting of elbow or wrist). His mechanics of the delivery looked identical between his fastball and curve.
My concern is that I found this link on the web, where Steve Carlton described his slider, and it sounds identical to what my son describes as his curve.
Steve Carlton Slider
As for his physical maturity – growth plates are almost filled in; he is well into puberty, 6’0”, 145 and is actually growing a decent beard (his coach likes it – thinks it intimidates hitters).
Is the new pitch he is throwing safe for a 14U?
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Memphis |
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06-18-2005 @ 12:20 PM
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The difference between a true curveball and a slider is much more about the delivery technique than the grip.
To a large extent, the grip for a curveball and a slider are nearly identical. In fact, for many pitchers, they ARE identical.
The difference is that, with a curveball, the pitcher gets his fingers ON TOP of the ball just prior to release and "karate chops" down. It's almost as if his hand goes first ... then the ball. The back of his hand faces the batter with the ball behind it.
The ball, if properly thrown, should MOSTLY have 12-to-6 o'clock spin.
It should break MOSTLY straight down.
This explains why a curveball has much lower velocity than a slider. The pitcher is chopping (or pulling) the ball towards the catcher. The pitcher's throwing hand is between the catcher and the ball as it is being released. That, in itself, is going to kill a lot of the velocity. When throwing a curveball, the pitcher sacrifices speed for spin.
With a slider, the pitcher keeps his hand BEHIND the ball much longer in the delivery. This is why a slider is much faster than a curveball.
Only at the last second, just prior to release, does the pitcher slice his fingers off to the side giving the ball incredible SIDE spin ... something that is not common to a curveball.
A pitcher should THINK fastball when throwing his slider and then, at the last second, SLICE IT.
That is not the mindset for throwing a curveball. It's all about the karate chop.
A slider will typically break down a bit, but NOTHING like the curveball. Some pitchers have a very flat slider - which is OK. A slider is going to have something close to 2-to-8 o'clock spin. It varies from pitcher to pitcher. But it certainly won't be 12-to-6.
It's this slicing action that is characteristic of the slider that tends to be hardest on the arm. The curveball does not have this violent slice.
With a slider, the pitcher IS spinning the ball out of his hand. With the curveball, all the spin is obtained with a "karate chop" (no wrist spinning) which is much easier on a young pitcher's arm.
Those who advocate that a pitcher should not be throwing a curveball prior to 14yrs old will usually follow that up by stating that a pitch should stay away from sliders until he's between 16-18yrs old.
Although a true curveball is easier on the arm than a slider, it is actually a much more difficult pitch to master. This is why most young pitchers throw more of a "slurve" - a combination of a curveball and a slider.
BEWARE OF THE CUT FASTBALL!
What many people call a "cut fastball" is really nothing more than slider. Also, a cut fastball should not have NEARLY the break that a slider has.
The slider and cut fastball are related pitches ... but yet, distinctly different.
If the pitcher is putting his index and middle finger TOGETHER ... it's a breaking pitch of some sort. A cut fastball is still going to have the separation between the index and middle finger (like a regular fastball), only the pitcher is going to allow his fingers to fall off to the side at release - instead of "staying on top" of the ball. This is going to cause the ball to skid or slide a bit. It's going to have some "movement". But if it breaks SHARPLY ... it's probably a slider.
Like I said, most kids try to throw the curveball but usually end up with a slurve.
My twin sons (14yrs old) have been taught to throw a true curveball. It's a pure 12-to-6 o'clock spin and it is a true HAMMER.
The bad news is they really don't have very good control of it and it's extremely difficult to get it called for a strike. The catcher has to have some excellent framing skills to get this pitched called for a strike ... unlike the slider.
A lot of batters chase their curves in the dirt but, sadly, the ball often ends up at the backstop or bouncing off the catcher's equipment. It's a tough pitch to throw but it's a whole lot easier on their arms.
Most pitchers decide whether they are going to throw a curveball OR a slider as their breaking pitch. There are very few pitchers who throw both. This is because it is easy for one pitch to morph into the other and you end up with a slider that has curveball characteristics and curveball that has slider characteristics.
By MLB standards, a pitcher who throws a 90mph fastball is probably going to have a curveball that is in the mid-to-high 70's. Some can get into the low 80's. The same type of pitcher (with a 90mph fastball) will probably have a slider that is regularly in the mid 80's.
Randy Johnson throws his fastball in the mid-to-high 90's. His slider is about 88mph. And I don't think I've ever seen Randy Johnson throw a curveball.
I Hope this helps you understand the difference.
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DRILL: To emphasize the correct spin and delivery technique for a curveball, have the pitcher throw a hockey puck and try to get the puck to spin straight down with the puck aligned straight up and down as it approaches the catcher. Try to minimize the slant.
Or, you can have them toss an empty Gatorade bottle by gripping it around the neck. Have them toss it so that the bottle flips end-over-end without any side tilt.
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
This message was edited by Memphis on 6-18-05 @ 7:17 PM
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coachjim |
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06-18-2005 @ 2:50 PM
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...instead of a Gatorade bottle, try an empty, plastic tennis ball can. It has a rounded bottom more like a baseball.
--jim
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THop |
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06-19-2005 @ 7:56 AM
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Tyrone:
I wouldn’t let my sons throw that pitch until they were 17 years old (and not very often then).
And today, I bet Steve Carlton and Tommy John wouldn’t either.
THop
This message was edited by THop on 6-19-05 @ 8:00 AM
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CoachK |
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06-19-2005 @ 11:51 AM
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Another thing you can do is tape a tennis ball to the top of a hard ball. This way you can see the rotation and still be holding a baseball.
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Tyrone |
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06-19-2005 @ 11:59 AM
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Memphis and Thop … sounds like y’all agree with me that he’s throwing a slider and needs to postpone it until later. I have no baseball background (except coaching my 2 sons) and what makes it frustrating is I first heard about this “snow-cone curve” from a college pitching coach at a camp for 7-12 year olds. He described it as a safe breaking pitch for 12 years old and up.
Memphis: It's this slicing action that is characteristic of the slider that tends to be hardest on the arm.
So I’ll know for future reference, can you describe what the pitcher does to get this “slicing action”? Is it a twist of the wrist? Because my son is not doing any twisting.
Memphis: The bad news is they really don't have very good control of [the 12-6 curve] and it's extremely difficult to get it called for a strike. The catcher has to have some excellent framing skills to get this pitched called for a strike ... unlike the slider.
How long does it take to learn the 12-6 curve before you can throw it for strikes in a game? My son throws to two of the best catchers I have seen playing at the 14U level, so if he can throw it, they can catch it. He’ll be playing in a big World Series in August and will definitely need something other than a fastball.
Finally, regarding the cut fastball. I heard Dr. Joe Chandler of the Atlanta Braves say that coaches may CALL it a cut fastball, but what the elbow FEELS is a slider.
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Memphis |
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06-19-2005 @ 1:28 PM
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I went in my backyard and tried to demonstrate the difference between a curveball release and a slider release.
In the video below, I *first* demonstrate a curveball release. I am exaggerating the release technique a bit to differentiate it from the slider.
For the curveball, notice how the wrist curls and all that is necessary is to karate chip down. All the spin is achieved by the chopping motion. There really is no twisting of the arm to achieve the spin. This is why a TRUE curveball is much easier on the arm.
Secondly, I demonstrate a slider release. The grip is identical. Notice how my hand stays behind the ball much longer. This is why the slider is a much faster pitch. At the last second, I slice the side of the ball. This definitely requires some twisting of the wrist which transmits that action all the way down to the elbow.
This is why the slider is a much more stressful pitch than the curveball, yet, ironically, much easier to throw. The slider is also more intuitive and natural. But that doesn't mean it is less harmful to a young arm.
Proper curveball spin must be emphasized or the curve will turn into a slider.
And THIS is why so many kids have arm problems. It's not so much that they are throwing the curveball too early (in their pitching career) - it's because they're throwing it WRONG.
Curveball and slider release
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
This message was edited by Memphis on 7-26-05 @ 12:26 PM
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spw1 |
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06-19-2005 @ 1:41 PM
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Memphis,
When can we expect the full line of training videos offered for sale here on BE?
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"Let us go forth awhile, and get better air in our lungs. Let us leave our closed rooms... The game of ball is glorious."
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Walt Whitman
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Tyrone |
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06-19-2005 @ 2:27 PM
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Thanks for your help and thanks for the video. That makes it very clear. Can't wait to show it to my son.
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Memphis |
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06-19-2005 @ 5:37 PM
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I want to emphasize some points that I probably have not made clear.
There is nothing wrong with throwing a breaking pitch that is hybrid of a curve and slider (i.e. slurve).
As long as you realize WHAT you're doing and HOW you're doing it. No problem. Yet, the "slider technique" necessary to get the slider-action is questionable for a young arm. It requires a fairly violent snap.
A cut fastball is really nothing more than a fastball grip (index and middle fingers slightly split) with a slider-type release technique (i.e. the fingers don't stay "on top" of the ball at release).
Because the grip is firmer and more balanced, the ball is going to have more velocity.
One thing almost ALL breaking pitches have in common is an off-balanced grip - what has been referred to in this thread as a "snowcone". That's true.
A slider should have a substantial side break whereas a cut fastball will skid or dart to a much lesser degree - yet be faster.
Many of you have probably heard of a knuckle curve. It is a fairly uncommon grip to achieve a slider-type break on the ball. Mike Mussina features this pitch in his arsenal.
The knuckle curve is a breaking pitch - it is NOT related to the knuckleball in ANY way. Whereas a knuckleball dances because of the LACK of spin, the knuckle curve breaks BECAUSE of the spin.
Remember how I said one thing all breaking pitches have in common is an off-balanced grip? This is also true for the knuckle curve. Instead of placing the index and middle fingers together and moving them off center, the fingers maintain the standard fastball grip EXCEPT that the index finger is tucked under and is holding the ball with just the knuckle. Essentially, it's a one-knuckle ball.
The only finger on top of the ball that has a normal grip on the ball is the middle finger. With one finger tucked and one finger normal, this creates the imbalance that facilitates spinning.
As the ball is released it is sliced in an indentical manner as a slider. The ball will spin around the middle finger and will have mostly SIDE spin.
As you can see, a knuckle curve is more closely related to a slider than any other pitch; although it generally will not have the velocity of the slider because of the weakened grip (due to the knuckle on the ball).
This is another pitch a young pitcher should avoid - in my opinion.
Last fall, a local high school coach conducted a training clinic for middle school aged ball players. His policy was - NO CURVEBALLS! Only fastballs and changeups. Probably a pretty good policy for the fall.
There was this one kid who was just mowing everybody down when he pitched. I observed him and there was no doubt about it - the kid was throwing a breaking pitch.
I asked one of my twin boys what the deal was. They told me that Jeff told the coach that he wasn't throwing a curve, it was his "knuckle changeup." Pfft!
Guess how Jeff was throwing his "knuckle changeup?" ... WITH ONE KNUCKLE!
All the other pitchers were anxious to get similar results by using some of their breaking pitches but they were sticking to fastballs and changeups as instructed by the coach. It's just that nobody could get their changeup to do what Jeff's changeup was doing. Hmmm ... I wonder why?
By the way, Jeff has had chronic arm problems. He is 14yrs old and has no business throwing a slider. Because that's what it is!
Beware of euphemisms for various pitches.
"My son doesn't throw a curve, he just cuts his fastball a little bit." Yeah - right.
"My son throws a knuckle changeup that really breaks." Yeah - I'll bet it does.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck ...
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
This message was edited by Memphis on 6-19-05 @ 10:00 PM
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